YEREVAN, Armenia — The International Criminal Court’s first prosecutor, Luis Moreno Ocampo, is best known for prosecuting national criminals like the ex-Sudanese dictator Omar al-Bashir. A 2022 movie about Moreno Ocampo’s work in Argentina prosecuting former junta leaders was nominated for an Oscar. Although these days he is a researcher at São Paulo University, in Brazil, he is often found in Yerevan, Armenia. Why? Moreno-Ocampo has been an outspoken supporter of the South Caucasus nation that last year suffered ethnic cleansing and loss of ancestral land in the Nagorno-Karabakh region, a disputed territory that Azerbaijan forcibly took after a nine-month siege in September 2023.
PassBlue spoke to Moreno Ocampo on the sidelines of the Fifth Global Forum Against the Crime of Genocide, here in Armenia’s capital recently. Facing criticism of the court in which he played a major role in establishing, the frank, lively 72-year-old defended the young institution’s record, including recent arrest warrants issued against sitting Israeli President Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli ex-Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and a Hamas commander (who is presumed dead) as well as sitting Russian President Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, in 2023.
Moreno Ocampo, the ICC’s prosecutor from 2003 to 2012, said the “fight between Russia and the US,” incited by the civil war in Syria, “created a much more chaotic world.”
The interview has been condensed and edited for clarity, flow and length. — JOE PENNEY
PassBlue: Here in Yerevan, at the Fifth Global Forum Against the Crime of Genocide, we hear a strong commitment to human rights and international law. Yet some powers have completely disregarded international law in current conflicts around the world. Do you think international law’s credibility is declining?
Moreno Ocampo: No, I think the decline is in those countries who commit crimes. Everyone was against the Russian intervention in Ukraine, even China. Everyone is against Israel’s intervention in Gaza. It’s just the US supporting. We must avoid [letting] Ukraine and Gaza conflicts expand to the rest of the world because the rest of the world is not [disregarding international law]. So, I think the problem is not with the law. The problem with those who are not respecting the law.
PassBlue: You’ve been very outspoken about Nagorno-Karabakh and supportive for Armenia in general. Why is Armenia so important to you?
Moreno Ocampo: I have given my life to the idea of strengthening the law, and my country [Argentina] is always complicated, but there’s no more dictatorship [Moreno Ocampo was a lead prosecutor in court cases against the military junta in Argentina before his job at the ICC]. The trials in my country helped. And then I was thinking, O.K., the ICC will help similarly in the world, but the world is still much more primitive. Because in my country, the politicians made an agreement: no more coups d’état, no more dictatorship. There is no such agreement at an international level. That’s why I was thinking, my tenure [at the ICC] ended. I did my job, I can do whatever I want. I went to Harvard and Yale to reflect on what I did. I was playing volleyball on the beach. I was happy. But then, since the Ukraine war came back, my feeling is, Oh, my God. And then the Armenians reduced my frustration, because I felt I can do something.
The Armenians are very powerful because they have this incredible diaspora in 120 countries, people acting. So that’s unique. So, the law normally is abstract. The Armenians understand very well because they have a genetic connection, and therefore it’s a great group to expand the power of the law.
PassBlue: You prosecuted the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, for genocide from 2005 to 2009, and now there’s a serious civil war in the country, backed by the United Arab Emirates. As in Darfur, the Janjaweed are committing atrocities through the RSF, or Rapid Support Forces. How do you view this crisis, given that you had such proximity to justice there?
Moreno Ocampo: We are not learning. The world is not learning. I was appointed at Harvard. They’re not learning. They don’t care about what’s happening outside, so that’s why I’m in São Paulo University at the center for Global Order because I think a less-powerful country could help. Because, for instance, in 1982, Israel went into Lebanon and killed 17,000 people. They removed Yasser Arafat [head of the Palestinian Liberation Organization]. They killed Hezbollah [leaders this year]. They never learned that killing people just reproduces the killers. It’s what Gen. Stanley McChrystal, head of the US Afghanistan mission, explained what he called the insurgency math. There are 10 insurgents in Afghanistan, you kill 2. How many remain? 20. 10-2 equals 20. That’s the insurgency math. Why? Because the friends and family became insurgents. Imagine 44,000 people killed in Gaza, how many will be against Israel now?
PassBlue: Before her contract ended recently, the UN special adviser on the prevention of genocide, Alice Wairimu Nderitu, had not declared what’s happening in Gaza as genocide, whereas the ICC has taken a different route. What is your position on the word “genocide” and Gaza?
Moreno Ocampo: No, she said there is a risk of genocide in Gaza.
PassBlue: Risk of.
Moreno-Ocampo: The problem is the states did not allow the UN special adviser on genocide to say it’s genocide. The maximum she could say was it’s a risk of genocide. But this is not her fault, it’s the states’ fault; the states don’t like to recognize genocide because they have to act and they don’t like to act.
PassBlue: When you say states, who are you referring to?
Moreno Ocampo: The biggest state in particular, the US. But also on genocide, Germany is also bad, UK is awful. France is O.K. Russia and France were normally good on genocide. UK and US, not good. China does not believe in the concept.
PassBlue: Are you in touch with Karim Khan, the current ICC prosecutor? Do you give him advice?
Moreno Ocampo: No, no, I did my job for nine years. Then they needed space, and I’m very glad. In my time, the risk was that the court would disappear. Now the court has become a very important institution. When I took office, I [had] friends in the [George W.] Bush administration, they could not talk to me. They said, Luis, you are radioactive. Now the US files documents, filed five petitions to the ICC. Imagine the recognition.
Of course, the problem is the US likes to play international law to the enemies or adversaries, not against friends. That’s why they like the Putin case but not the Netanyahu case. Or they like the al-Bashir case. They are selective; not just Biden; the official policy of Obama was, We support the court when we like the cases. That is the US position and that is in crisis now because this double standard — even the King of Jordan, who is a friend of the US, is denouncing it. That’s why when you start the conversation, I think the legitimate crisis [is] for the US, not for the court.
PassBlue: But what about when Mongolia, which is a signatory to the Rome Statute, allowed Putin into its territory in September?
Moreno Ocampo: What you must understand, an indictment of the ICC is not 100, it’s not zero. Putin cannot go to Brazil and to South Africa. He managed to offer a big contract to Mongolia, and Mongolia said we need oil, so Mongolia accepted. So, I understand Mongolia, they [Russia] had a legal problem, they had to explain. But the fact that they are making efforts to go to Mongolia is showing the impact that you see.
PassBlue: What about European countries’ reaction to the Netanyahu and Gallant arrest warrants? They had a wishy-washy response.
Moreno-Ocampo: No, no, no, no. All of them say they will implement the court decision. After the Lebanese ceasefire agreement [in November], I believe there was an agreement with Netanyahu and European countries saying he has immunity. But this issue must be decided by the judges, so whatever they say is irrelevant. Because they know it’s not true. There are political maneuvers, but I think it’s good because I like the state taking advantage of the ICC to negotiate because the issue is not the legal characterization, the issue is stopping the bombing in Gaza, stopping the siege of the Gaza people.
PassBlue: Fatou Bensouda, your successor at the ICC, was the target of threats and stalking by Mossad, the Israeli spy agency. Were you ever targeted by governments?
Moreno-Ocampo: No, no, no. In my time, the ICC and Israel started a relationship. And then it was deepened in Fatou’s time. But everything changed when the [United Nations] General Assembly recognized Palestine as a state in TK and then Palestine became a state party to the ICC [in 2015]. From that day, Israel they knew they were more at risk.
PassBlue: Much of the early criticism of the ICC was that it focused too much on African conflicts and African leaders. Looking back, what do you think about that early criticism?
Moreno Ocampo: It was wrong. You have African victims, African criminals. What do you do? I am on the side of the victims against the criminals. That was a successful campaign of al-Bashir. Until al-Bashir, no one was talking about African bias. He did it very successfully. In my time, the biggest crimes in the state parties were committed in Africa. Now, we have crimes everywhere. We have problems in the Middle East, we have problems in Ukraine, it’s much more diverse.
We choose the case according to gravity. In [Democratic Republic of the] Congo, there were 5,000 killings. In Uganda, 2,500 killings. In Central African Republic, there was a massive campaign of rape, and the three cases were brought to me by the same African state, so the government asked me to intervene. Kenya is the only case I brought about independently.
PassBlue: About Kenya, the case investigated post-election violence, including the involvement of William Ruto, who is now president.
Moreno-Ocampo: Look, that’s interesting because the ICC’s role is not to make a country like Denmark. It’s to stop crimes against humanity. We did that. So, in 2008, the election was a massive, massive killing; in 2015, the next election, there was almost no violence. So, all my cases in Africa were: Uganda referred the situation, Congo referred the situation, Central African Republic referred the situation. Kenya accepted my intervention. The UN Security Council referred Darfur to me. It referred Libya to me, and the Ivory Coast requested my intervention.
PassBlue: Is there a role for morality in geopolitics?
Moreno Ocampo: It’s not about morality. It’s not that we pretend to give nice speeches or talk about gender balance. It’s basic. It’s no war crimes and no genocide. That’s the only limit. On that limit, there was consensus in 1988. The US and China agreed with the limit. They don’t like an independent observer, but they agreed with the values. So, ICC is focused only on the global values, very limited. It’s a very high threshold: no massive atrocities. That’s it.
PassBlue: Currently, Sudan has the largest number of displaced people globally, the largest numbers of civilians killed in the world. What can be done to stop this war?
Moreno Ocampo: It’s a pity, because in my time the world was different. I was lucky. The turning point was 2011, when the war in Syria started. Syria divided the US and Russia. Before that, Russia voted in favor of the Darfur referral, and voted in favor of the Libyan referral. The Libyan referral was by consensus. Even China, US and India voted in favor. Until 2011, Russia was completely on board. But then Syria and what happened in Libya transformed the mind of Putin and he stopped it. So, it’s more a geopolitical problem. The fight between Russia and the US created a much more chaotic world.
PassBlue: In Sudan, the main party backing the opposition, RSF, is the UAE. But there’s a lot more proxy behavior. Turkey is backing the HTS (Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham) rebels in Syria, which just took over Damascus and other major cities. It’s not just US and Russia anymore.
Moreno Ocampo: They opened the door. Because at the end [President Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan] said [to Armenia], it’s about military power. Now there are no more limits and military power is the only relevant thing. The problem in Africa, there are much more crimes than in my time. No one cares about the crimes in Africa, they don’t care about Tigrayans [in Ethiopia]. After 2011, the world is going down, and we need to reverse that. If not, the world has no future.
Do you know Fortnite? Fortnite’s a video game where the winner kills all the others. That’s a good metaphor of the world if we don’t change course. The ICC is the model to end the war and do justice. We are progressing.
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Joe Penney is a writer, filmmaker and photographer who lives in Brooklyn, N.Y., and Lagos. He directed a documentary, “Sun of the Soil: The Story of Mansa Musa,” about the reign of Mali’s 14th-century king. Penney’s articles and essays have been published by The Intercept, The New York Times, Quartz, Reuters and Paris journals. He was West African photo bureau chief for Reuters, and his pictures have appeared in Geo, Jeune Afrique, Le Monde, The Guardian, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and Time, among others. He has photographed presidential elections in Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone as well as the 2012 coup in Mali and the French military intervention in 2013, Mauritanian refugee camps, mining sites in Niger, migrants in the Sahel, counterterrorism campaigns in Cameroon, the 2013-2014 conflict in Central African Republic and the people’s coup in Burkina Faso in 2014. Penney co-founded Sahelien.com, a news company covering the Sahel region, in 2013. In Africa, he has lived in Ivory Coast, Mali and Senegal. He graduated from McGill University in Montreal and speaks English, French and Spanish.
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Indeed the world is facing serious escalation of military actions between the two super powers, however with the Democrats loosing the presidential elections and in minority in the US Senate and Congress and with a new republican government there is a chance to change the course of events. Also the other war mongers like Macron, Trudeau and Olaf are in serious political difficulties in France, Canada and Germany! So we may see another world soon with a beter reality using ‘deals’ rather than bombs.